New England Newbies

[wolfwood]

Hi there! We're new divers in New England. Actually, I was certified back in 1971 when I was 15 and was "refreshed" 4wks ago in Ixtapa, Mexico while my partner got the PADI Basic Scuba Diver cert (soon to be an Open Water Diver, too)!!!

Within the last 3 weeks, we've been to every dive shop within 50 miles, having heard all kinds of opinions (that's okay) - some agree, some don't....so our heads are in a bit of a spin!! We've got 3mil wetsuits, masks, & snorkels already and have bought some addt'l equipment, while still searching for the rest. We'll put our kits together for up here (obviously means new wetsuits) and will dive here (cold) and, when we can, on vaca. (tropics).

I do have a question (one??) for you wise folks. We had connected with a dives hop/dive master who we thought we liked well enough. However, he is ADAMANTLY opposed to back flotation bcs and jumped all over us because I had purchased a .... backflotation bc - the Sherwood Tortuga, to be exact. We certainly had heard his concerns ... and picked the brains of all the shops we went to. They ALL said "floating face down" is a matter of how the bc is trimmed out and that the general concern over being forced face down just shouldn't be an issue. I also have MS and equipment weight is very much a concern. Not only is the Tortuga more comfortable (for me) but it's also lighter. We have now found a new dive shop (and will move away from the other as we can.....yeah, there are some extenuating circumstances) but I really don't want to take the bc back just because of what this 1 guy has said....provided it can be trimmed out correctly and be safe. What do you guys think? Does it make a difference that I am an "amply endowed" female, over 50, and of good, solid German-stock Oh, and was carrying 24# on a belt in the Mexican waters.

[Mo2vation]

Welcome back to diving. The ocean says it's missed you.



I started with a back inflate. Loved it. Never had an issue. Before long I went to a backplate and wing - and I've been there ever since.

My wife started with a jacket BC - she loved it. Then one day she borrowed by SeaQuest "Balance" - which is a minimalist back inflate BC. She loved it so much we sold her jacket. A couple of years later she also moved to a Backplate and wing.

Obviously body type, weighting and exposure suit have a lot to do with how you are positioned in and on top of the water. But I've never experienced the "face down" stuff people talk about. Maybe because I've always dived a steel cylinder?

We're glad you're here.

Welcome.


-Ken

[wolfwood]

Thanks, Ken! Tell the ocean that I missed her, too!! ;<)

Your response is the same that we have heard and why we ended up going with the Tortuga. Must say we were AMAZED by how strongly he reacted. Not gonna deal with someone who has such a limited vision on the "right" equipment, won't deal with something he doesn't sell, has a VERY limited inventory, to boot, and doesn't interact with US as mature, thinking adults!!!! (can you tell we're pissed??) Turned us off IMMEDIATELY! Unfortunately, my prescript. lens mask (which we bought from him) doesn't fit and he has it - trying to replace it with one that does fit ... so we need to resolve that little matter and then we're done with him. Not sure how to try the Tortuga out since he won't address it at all .... weighting, using, nothing!! Any ideas?

[Mo2vation]

Thanks, Ken! Tell the ocean that I missed her, too!! ;<)

Your response is the same that we have heard and why we ended up going with the Tortuga. Must say we were AMAZED by how strongly he reacted. Not gonna deal with someone who has such a limited vision on the "right" equipment, won't deal with something he doesn't sell, has a VERY limited inventory, to boot, and doesn't interact with US as mature, thinking adults!!!! (can you tell we're pissed??) Turned us off IMMEDIATELY! Unfortunately, my prescript. lens mask (which we bought from him) doesn't fit and he has it - trying to replace it with one that does fit ... so we need to resolve that little matter and then we're done with him. Not sure how to try the Tortuga out since he won't address it at all .... weighting, using, nothing!! Any ideas?

Honestly, I prefer the passionate take to the luke warm "whatever". If the guy feels strongly about something, I'll generally listen - even if his tact can use a little refinement.

But if he's just a screamer with no game, has no answers and can't defend his position - kick him to the curb and move on.

I love the discourse. If I'm not on your side of an issue, it doesn't mean I think you're wrong - it means you haven't convinced me. I've come 180 on lots and lots of gear, equipment configurations and other things to do with diving and life - nearly all of them because someone had a different idea and presented it with reason, logic, passion and convinced me to change my way of thinking.

If this dude hasn't been able to come at you with a better argument than a back inflate is bad because it'll throw you face down if you're unconscious on the surface (a scenario I personally don't use when selecting gear) then it may be time to put him on mute and seek other opinions.

Find someone with a pool. Water is water. Of course Saltwater has different characteristics than pool water - but get in the pool in your exposure suit with your fins and stuff - full gear - and blow that thing up. Hang there and see what happens.

---
Ken

[wolfwood]

Yep. Water is water....but we do need the tanks & weights. Soooo...the hunt is on. I sure do respect passion .... but he needs to respect us, too!

[Pasley]

Back inflate - In my book a back inflate with a crotch strap is good. Back inflate without a crotch strap, not so good. BP and Wind, better.

The problem with a back inflate is over inflation. If you try to float higher than your chin out of the water (which is all a BC is suppose to do) then if there is no crotch strap they can climb up your back and plant you face down. A jacket BC crawls up, but all around you and so you don't get the face plant. So just remember not to inflate the bp too much on the surface and you should be fine.

I dive a Back Plate and wing. Jim Gatacer founder of Handicapped SCUBA Association (HSAscuba.com) is dead set against back inflate. When I did my HSA training all of use wore bp/wing or back inflate and we all struggled with them when we had our feet tied together as paraplegic towing our buddy while doing rescue breathing. But in the end this is more about putting less air in the BC than any inherent danger in the rig. I know some who view any back inflate BC as a "technical rig" suitable only for advanced divers. So listen to what they have to say against the BP and evaluate it as either facts well presented or just their preference.

One final thought. All BCD (BP, BP/Wing, Jacket etc) are clearly labeled that they are NOT LIFE JACKETS because none of them (even the jacket style) are designed are not designed to float an unconcious diver face up.

A diver with mobility issues will have to take that into account when selecting equipment. Because you may want to gear up in water, having quick releases on the straps is important. But if a BP works for you then go for it.

[wolfwood]

OK. Here's my "old school diving" showing through .... what is a "Back Plate" and a "Wing"? I do consider myself a new diver as its been 35 yrs since I've been diving ... but I have always been exceptionally comfortable/confident in the water - racing, teaching, guarding, etc. My mobility issues simply don't exist in the water and, as of yet, spasticity hasn't been a regular issue. The back-inflate not only seemed like it would be simpler for me to use (I'm used to not using a bc at all!) but it's also lighter which would be an advantage.

Perhaps this is all for naught tho'. I read a description of the Tortuga bc as being a "hybrid" . I haven't had it in the water yet so haven't inflated it either. The shop we got it at referred to it as a "Back Flotation" so that's what we told the other guy ... who never looked at, just started "scolding" us. Anyone know if it's actually a back inflate or not?

[Pasley]

[QUOTE=wolfwood;97151]...what is a "Back Plate" and a "Wing"? Tobin George is the expert here on that but I will try. The attached website will show you what they look like.
https://www.deepseasupply.com/

A Back plate is a steel (6 pounds or so) or aluminum plate with webbing as the foundation on which you attach you tank or tanks and your wing.

The wing is the air cell portion and is sized to suit the needs of dive. So if you are diving a single tank with 20 pounds of lead, you would probably want a 30 pound or smaller wing, double tanks then a larger wing. The wing is between the tank and the back plate so as you inflate it, it wraps around the tank and not squeezing you to death.

Bottom line, you and your tank become one unit, no flopping around of the tank or the bc, it is part of you. Trims out beautifully and if you want to dive a drysuit or doubles it is the way to go. The back plate also moves part of your weight (6 pounds or so) to directly behind your lungs.

The back plate and wing come apart and pack nicely for travel too.

[wolfwood]

Gotcha! Thanks.

Time for this Yankee's day to end.

[Pasley]

I have to go too. Heading down to the Camp Pendleton USMC tomorrow to continue the work on starting an adaptive dive program there for our wounded Marines. Early appointment so that means driving in rush hour traffic. I don't do heavy traffic well so I will leave here at "oh my its still dark" and the have a leisurely breakfast and kill a few hours before my appointment at 0900.