Educational philosophy: Learn by error?

[LCF]

At one point in my recent class, we surfaced from a dive where we had made a mistake that the instructor KNEW we were going to make, because it's a common mistake to make under the circumstances we were in. (I don't remember the specifics now.) He said, "I could have told you ahead of time to be careful about that, but you'll remember the lesson better because you made the mistake."

And I've been mulling that over since. It's true that making errors -- at least if you recognize them at the time, or shortly thereafter -- tends to throw the experience into high relief and make it memorable. But making mistakes takes a toll on the student, too, in morale and confidence. I've trained animals for years, and I know absolutely that you make better progress if you set them up to succeed, than you do by allowing them to make errors and then correcting them. Although people differ from animals, in that they are taking whatever training they are doing because they WANT to, and they understand the desired outcome, I'm not entirely sure they're all that different from animals in this regard.

I believe there is some educational theory out there that stresses positive reinforcement and structuring experiences to channel the student to success. I'm wondering if anybody here who is teaching technical diving of any kind is using those ideas, or what kind of balance you may strike between permitting the student to make mistakes and learn from them, and creating enough success to keep morale and confidence high.

[Sounder]

I believe in training for prevention of mistakes, but I also believe in the school of hard knocks. I'm interested to hear about the balance from a technical instructor's point of view as well.

[dsteding]

I think part of good technical training is positive reinforcement, but a bigger part may be divorcing yourself from the need to "succeed" to keep going.

Honestly, the learn from your failures method of teaching works well in a controlled setting where you are learning not to kill yourself. I think the burden is on the student to not take it too hard--and if the student is, the student needs to do a bit of self-evaluation to understand why a particular failure is causing a drop in morale and also leading to low confidence.

Basically, we all do some stupid stuff in class--and learn from it. If you get caught up on the fact you did stupid stuff, you miss the learning opportunity. Which maybe means you are in class for the wrong reason.

[ae3753]

I don't teach technical diving, but I believe in learning by mistakes. Unless it's life threatening, things should be allowed to happen.

Our strongest learnings are through actual experience. Otherwise, we would never repeat the mistakes of our forefathers (or mentors/teachers). Everyone has the "won't happen to me" or "I could've handled it" or "yeah, I would have caught it before it was too late" until they experience it themselves.

In addition to the experience, the post dive discussion of the mistake is often more helpful. And much more detail and vigorous, as oppose to it being a lecture or theoretical discussion.

Student morale is also dependent on instructor delivery and his/her ability to read the students. If the students are feeling beaten up, then the instructor must set up situations in which the students have success again and rebuild their confidence.

In addition, the instructor should set the student's expectations of the class - about the challenges and difficulties, and how it's not about being perfect but about learning, etc.

Lastly, instructor has a choice on which mistakes to focus on and highlight. This goes for the in water skills and failures as well as the debriefs and the detailed dive reviews. Every one of us has a multitude of issues to fix, it's the instructor that has be able to determine what's appropriate for the course, the diver, and the team.

[ligersandtions]

When we got puppies a couple years ago, we took them to training. My dog is very timid, so in a class setting, she almost always did exactly what I told her to do as she didn't want to leave my side. The instructor praised us, but also warned, "If she never makes a mistake and you never have to correct her for it, she doesn't know it's wrong."

Of course, the trainer didn't see us at home when she actually did make mistakes and was corrected, but the sentiment made sense.

However, with people, you can discuss that kind of stuff. You don't have to make the mistake to know that the possibility/opportunity exists. I think some people learn better when they're warned about something beforehand and watch out for it (I am like this)....while others really need to screw up to learn from it.

Everyone learns from screwing up....some can learn by being told what to watch out for (but not every situation can be discussed)....I think this is probably why instructors allow students to make mistakes and learn from them (and when you really screw up badly, you don't forget ever).

[ae3753]

From the student perspective, I think that Doug touched on it well.

If you expect to be perfect or are perfect in class, then you're in the wrong course. As a student, you will make mistakes and you will be challenged. You are there to learn, and it's important to not fixate on every mistake and miss the larger picture.

I know that if I took Full Cave again, SMB will find issues with my diving. Or will be able to put me in a situation were I make a bad decision or doubt myself.

[Grateful Diver]

At one point in my recent class, we surfaced from a dive where we had made a mistake that the instructor KNEW we were going to make, because it's a common mistake to make under the circumstances we were in. (I don't remember the specifics now.) He said, "I could have told you ahead of time to be careful about that, but you'll remember the lesson better because you made the mistake."

And I've been mulling that over since. It's true that making errors -- at least if you recognize them at the time, or shortly thereafter -- tends to throw the experience into high relief and make it memorable. But making mistakes takes a toll on the student, too, in morale and confidence. I've trained animals for years, and I know absolutely that you make better progress if you set them up to succeed, than you do by allowing them to make errors and then correcting them. Although people differ from animals, in that they are taking whatever training they are doing because they WANT to, and they understand the desired outcome, I'm not entirely sure they're all that different from animals in this regard.

I believe there is some educational theory out there that stresses positive reinforcement and structuring experiences to channel the student to success. I'm wondering if anybody here who is teaching technical diving of any kind is using those ideas, or what kind of balance you may strike between permitting the student to make mistakes and learn from them, and creating enough success to keep morale and confidence high.

Well, for once I completely agree with David's approach. I think ... especially in the unforgiving environment we were training in ... that making mistakes in that manner adds value. And, frankly, it doesn't always help if they tell you in advance ... because there's a huge difference between hearing something and experiencing it.

As an example ... when Kam and I made our navigational brain fart and followed our instructor the wrong way down a jump ... he had told us exactly what to do and how to do it. We both noticed the arrows pointing the opposite direction. And we STILL followed him. He set us up to fail. He KNEW we would most likely fail. And he did it anyway.

And I'm very glad he did. That failure sank in deep ... and it's unlikely we'll ever make it again. The consequences this time were minor compared to what they might have otherwise been.

There were a couple times I think Jim set us up to fail for exactly that reason ... those mistakes caused us to reset our whole mental approach to the dive. Had he not done that, we'd know at a certain level what the right thing to do would be ... but it wouldn't mean nearly as much as it did having experienced the failure.

I'd WAY rather feel bad about making a mistake during a class than experience the consequences of making that same mistake during a real dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Gene_Hobbs]

Rather than thinking of it as "learning by mistakes", how about thinking of it as the use of a principle of learning known as the law of effect or in the case of most classes I have taken, the law of intensity.

I know I for one remember the "mistakes" I made in my cave class over a decade ago and barely remember the "other" dives.

[JS1scuba]

Interesting questions you pose here. I've been teaching technical diving and technical instructor training
since the early 1990s and have modified and changed my teaching style over the years to meet with the changing needs of myself, course standards, student experience, environment etc.

How a student evolves has much to do with their expectations and what expectations the instructor places on them. My programs have a lot of academics in them. I require a fair amount of pre-course reading. This is mostly so that my students can get onto MY page and my terminology. It also prepares them to ask questions. If you don't ask a question then I make the clear decision that you already know it. (That is anything from prior courses.) I will start out with all students in any course letting them know that I might give them some standard answers to some questions they may present. Some of them are:

1. YES, that will work.
2. NO, I would not do that.
3. Well, what do you think you should do?

Some questions require more elaborate answers and those get answered as well. But what I think I hear you saying is that you want all the answers before the questions get raised. That is not something that can really be done for a dynamic environment. Let me explain.

Diving is not a fixed mechanism. It does not only work one way for everyone. While some may like it to be that way the real world does not work that way. For example. Gas supply. I've seen some folks with the best sac rates turn to crap under adverse conditions. I've watched people who are extremely capable out of the water become mush when in the water. And I've seen some folks who are academically poor be outstanding in the water and in a comfort zone that would blow your mind. As an instructor our job is to help you become prepared to learn. That is a critical point to take in. We help you prepare to learn. We provide you with the information, tools and techniques that will allow YOU to step forward and continue to do these types of activities without us around.

Some students need hand holding and will never really be able to be on their own. To that end they may have completed all of the requirements and should be capable of being on their own but they will choose to always have a more experienced diver with them. Others will take the lead and become the lead dog.

There are times while training divers where I introduce what I like to call Tips, Tricks, and Traps. I will provide a scenario and let the team work it out. Sometimes the trap is described, most times it's not. It's never performed in an area where the divers can get hurt and one person in the team will know what the Trap is so they can be helpful if other members can't solve it. It's all for confidence building and task management.

Drama has no place in training while underwater. However drama does have a place on surface skills as in rescue scenarios etc. Those only work well with high testosterone.

When we are presented with a student who lives or dies with pass or fail we have a counseling session right away with the focus on removing that stress. If it continues, we counsel again. But if it interferes with the entire group we take a break from training and have a fun dive and put that person in charge of the dive. That will help build confidence.

The goal is always for each student to emerge from the program feeling the 3 Cs Capable, Competent, Confident.

Diving is a dynamic activity in a dynamic environment. The only wrong thing you can do is to NOT make a decision when something comes up. Don't second guess yourself. Just call the ball, you will adjust and make mods along the way to solve the problem. In many respects it's just like life.

My dear friend, mentor and Captain for years, Capt. Steve Bielenda shares with people his knapsack theory. It goes like this. "On every dive you do you will learn something. Put it in your knapsack and carry that knapsack with you on every dive. Over the years it will get filled with things. Then, someday on a dive when you find you don't have the answer to a problem, open up the bag and take out the answer. It's in there, you just have to remember to use it. "

Positive reinforcement is always important but like teaching children if you always reward for good work then when they don't do good work they are devastated. A balance is needed. If you don't make mistakes you can't learn alternative methods. Mistakes are ok to make. Successes are good too. Sometimes the mistakes can not be predicted, sometimes they can be.

Find the 3 Cs ....

Cheers
JDS

[rjack]

Basically, we all do some stupid stuff in class--and learn from it. If you get caught up on the fact you did stupid stuff, you miss the learning opportunity. Which maybe means you are in class for the wrong reason.

A+ Doug


And after class you continue to learn and progress by critically evaluating your dives. Amongst my primary team we improve by looking really hard at even marginal "mistakes" to think about how they impacted the dive, how they could have been disasterous in slightly different circumstances, and how to avoid them in the future. You can do 99% right on a dive and still die from the the last 1% mistake. So while we are happy for the 99%, we take no prisoners ripping into even the seemingly small mistakes and what we need learn and do differently. Which is essentially the ongoing class of life experience.

[BDub]

In my own personal diving, I know what I’m good at. When taking a class, I want to know what I’m weak at, what I need to work on, what I suck at, etc. For me personally, making a mistake has a much stronger and longer lasting impact than being told of possible pitfalls.

As an instructor, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve told a student I want them to do something specific during a dive, only to have them forget due to their concentration being elsewhere. However, when things “go wrong” as a result of not doing the task they were asked to do, they rarely forget to perform that task again.

For the most part, where I focus my positive reinforcement is where the students stop making the same mistake. That shows me they’re learning, remembering and committing. There’s always going to be mistakes, it’s learning from them and not repeating them that’s important.

[LCF]

I think some of you are reading me wrong. I'm not trying to imply that it's bad for students to make mistakes. I really am curious about how people who teach this stuff strike a balance between where setting the student up for success works better, and where permitting an error is the right thing to do. Bob's example is a perfect one where the mistake had much more impact than all the coaching on how to do things correctly. That's definitely a constructive technique, because the lesson had to be underscored for safety. (Our spool mistake was another one, although David didn't set that one up for us.)

[lobstah]

When you are given all the solutions, you don't learn to think for yourself, but to follow the procedure. Allowing you to make mistakes is forcing you to keep your brain working. And in reality noone knows all the solutions, so this is precisely what you need to be ready for in a real life situation.

And how to balance it with positive reinforcement? Strongly depends on a student. But then again if someone wants to be a technical diver they need to be able to stomach a beating and be able to come out of it on a positive note. Most common reason I see people quit diving is because they tie it strongly to their self esteem and get spanked diving and can't get over it.

Everyone gets spanked.

[LCF]

Interesting excerpt from the Wikipedia article Gene cited:

One of the important obligations of the instructor is to set up the learning situation in such a manner that each trainee will be able to see evidence of progress and achieve some degree of success. Experiences that produce feelings of defeat, frustration, anger, confusion, or futility are unpleasant for the student. If, for example, an instructor attempts to teach advanced concepts on the initial engagement, the student is likely to feel inferior and be frustrated. Impressing upon students the difficulty of a task to be learned can make the teaching task difficult. Usually it is better to tell students that a problem or task, although difficult, is within their capability to understand or perform. Every learning experience does not have to be entirely successful, nor does the student have to master each lesson completely. However, every learning experience should contain elements that leave the student with some good feelings. A student’s chance of success is definitely increased if the learning experience is a pleasant one.

This seems to fly very much in the face of the "school of hard knocks" philosophy of much of dive training . . .

[dsteding]

Interesting excerpt from the Wikipedia article Gene cited:



This seems to fly very much in the face of the "school of hard knocks" philosophy of much of dive training . . .

Well, but. I think an important part of this is the student's perspective. How quickly is one driven to frustration or feelings of defeat? How does one handle those?

In general, I agree with the learning philosophy--but when the stakes are high, I still believe the burden is on the student to go into the experience understanding failure is a strong possibility--and that the student be prepared to cope with that.