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Thread: Cylinder Inspection - VIP and Hydro

  1. #1
    Diving Technologist JS1scuba's Avatar
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    Default Cylinder Inspection - VIP and Hydro

    Greetings,

    The other day we went through our own cylinders and saw that 24 of them needed to be tested. So I thought it appropriate to revisit it and help remove some questions on it.

    As some of you know TDL / STT has a full industrial hydro test facility called Havau Hydrotest. We inspect and re certify cylinders for all industries. Those big trucks driving down the road with hundreds of cylinders in them from the little oxygen bottle grandma uses to the big 6000 psi nitrogen bottles flow through our facility.

    Let's talk about a few things according to DOT here so that we are all on the same page.

    Hydrostatic tests are required by DOT (department of transportation) every 5 years for portable cylinders. Some industrial cylinders (not underwater use) can be extended to 10 years and some cylinders that are in a permanent mounting system do not need to be tested at all.

    Visual Inspection is required by DOT of all cylinders prior to the Hydrostatic Test. This allows the cylinder technician to determine if the cylinder even warrants hydrostatic testing. They will inspect for rust, pits, damage, threads, neck cracks etc.

    A Visual Eddy Current test is required on certain aluminum cylinders on a DOT list that were manufactured 1990 and prior. These include tanks from Walter Kidde, Luxfer, Parker, etc. The VE test is not required on industrial CO2 cylinders. Most hydrostatic test facilities will just do a Visual Eddy Current test on all aluminum cylinders 1990 and earlier as a routine measure so as to not miss any that may have been on the list.

    If a cylinder fails a Visual Inspection / Visual Eddy test the cylinder will NOT be hydrostatic tested and the cylinder will be taken out of service. A series of Xs will be stamped into the Service Pressure Area and the Hydrostatic Test Area or rendered incapable of being refilled (drill holes, cut etc. or Stamped CONDEMNED. Most just stamp Xs.

    Hydrostatic Test Pressures are set by DOT for specific cylinders. There is a fairly complicated formula but most scuba cylinders fall under two methods 5/3rds service pressure or 3/2 service pressure. Most aluminum and steel cylinders will be tested to 5/3rds service pressure to determine the Elastic Expansion and the Permanent Elastic Expansion. For example a 3000 psi cylinder will be tested to 5000 psi. a 2400 psi cylinder will be tested to 4000 psi and so on. Certain "Exempt" cylinders get tested to 3/halves service pressure. These are typically steel cylinders either rated at 3500 psi or 3442 psi these get tested to 5250 psi and 5163 psi respectively.

    If the cylinder fails to meet the tolerance of the Elastic Expansion and the Permanent Expansion test it fails and must be taken out of service.

    Plus Rating on Steel Cylinders "+" The "+" rating allows for certain cylinders to be filled to service pressure plus 10%. IE: 2400 psi steel cylinder can be filled to 2400 psi + 240 psi for a total of 2640 psi. A 2015 psi cylinder can be filled to 2015 psi + 201 psi for a total of 2216 psi.

    Plus ratings cannot be placed on Aluminum Cylinders or Steel Cylinders that fall under the "Exempt" rule (3500 or 3442). However the plus rating can be added to a cylinder at any time it is hydro statically tested. There is no special test for it. It's just a standard hydrostatic test within the DOT guidelines so long at it meets the REE (Reject Expansion Limit).

    A question always comes up from divers about the + rating. If it had it before can it get it again ? Yes if it meets the test. A cylinder is not tested any differently for plus rating than non plus rating. If it fails a hydro test it fails period. The ability to do a plus rating is at the discretion of the Cylinder Re-inspection Technician. For example if it's an old cylinder with rust that passed visual they may not go for the plus rating for ongoing safety issues. If a cylinder had a plus on one hydro and then the next hydro did not have it, the next one can get a plus rating.

    Scuba Visual Inspection was created as an industry standard but not one that is required by the DOT. Scuba divers and scuba refilling facilities had inherently had a bad track record of taking care of cylinders. Plus because cylinders are immersed in water they have the possibility of getting water inside and accelerating corrosion. As such the scuba industry instituted the Annual Visual Inspection. It's a good policy and has enhanced cylinder safety in the scuba industry for years.

    Refinishing a Cylinder. Anytime a cylinder has been refinished it becomes suspect. The only refinishing that can really be done to a cylinder is to clean it and repaint it. Any cylinder that has been exposed to heat for curing a finish can damage the structural integrity of the cylinder and should not be done. It will probably fail an inspection and or hydro test. Careful maintenance on a cylinder will preserve its finish.

    Use of A Cylinder. The cylinder that has gas in it can continue to hold that gas indefinitely. If you had a cylinder filled 4 months ago and today you see the hydrostatic test or visual inspection (scuba) has expired you can still use the cylinder. It however will not be refilled until it has met inspection.

    All the rules and laws fall under a variety of agencies. DOT, OSHA, US Coast Guard etc. each will impose different types of fines should things not be in place properly. But for the most part if you adhere to proper hydrostatic test time frames and for scuba the annual visual inspection you will be just fine.

    The scuba industry has strongly suggested behavior for cylinders and that's all set up for the safety of persons handing and using the cylinders.

    The Professional Scuba Inspectors company in Washington state has done an outstanding job of training dive centers and individuals in how to properly visually inspect and handle cylinders. www.psicylinders.com However it is only DOT inspectors that can certify under federal code a Cylinder Re-inspector (hydro facility).

    As a diver you need to consider that your cylinders are consumables and at times will fail a visual or hydrostatic test. This can come about from a variety of ways many of which you have zero control over some of which you have a lot of control over. Damage to the cylinder, water incursion, "cave fills" (illegal overfilling), leaving a cylinder overfilled with a sustained load (pressure).

    If a cylinder fails a visual or hydrostatic test that's it. Take it out of service and move on. Try not to second guess the tester he or she knows what to do and will do it properly they test cylinders every day. A good technician does his job well.

    Tanks !

    JDS
    Joel Silverstein, VP COO
    Tech Diving Limited
    TDI Advanced Trimix Instructor Trainer 0125
    Need to reach me ? Cell / Text 928-230-3680

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    Senior Member do it easy's Avatar
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    Thanks for the writeup. There are lots of myths and rumors about tanks, VIPs, and hydros.

    Got any pictures for the hydro lab?
    ... lingering on the chilling embrace of freshwater...

  3. #3
    Senior Member Mark Vlahos's Avatar
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    Joel,

    Another good post! However I have a couple of questions not specifically mentioned.

    Should we as divers have specific concerns regarding steel or aluminum cylinders left filled to their rated maximum normal fill pressure for periods extending into months? You live in the desert and typically see temperature swings in normal daily life. For the purpose of my question please assume that a cylinder left filled but unused might be subject to temperature swings like those found in a garage in your area, but not normally exposed to extended periods of direct sunlight on a daily basis.

    What if these cylinders in the above example contain high percentages of Oxygen?

    Your post was about the cylinders, what about the valves? What is our responsibility here in the US regarding the valves. Personally I make sure that the burst disks on all of my valves are correct for the cylinders they sit on. In most cases I have replaced the original burst disks for correct pressure ratings.

    On Faber cylinders I routinely use a scotch brite pad to smooth the edges where paint has chipped away and then followed up with the application of gray auto primer paint from Pep Boys. You know the little bottle with the brush on the inside of the handle. Am I making a difference, either positively or negatively on my cylinders expected long term life span. On Fabers where the wear is smooth like the lines on doubles that develop on the bottoms and around and up the backs from leaning I do not do anything to "fix" the paint.

    What about my aluminum cylinders (brushed no coat finish), PST and Worthington cylinders? All of these get little or no attention when I discover "use marks"

    Mark Vlahos
    At 50 dives, I thought I had this diving thing figured out. At 100 dives, I realized how wrong I was at 50.
    If you're going to dive like a man, shave like a man
    Cancer survivor since 2011.

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    Joel, if a cylinder fails inspection or hydro does your company x-out or drill holes in them?
    Thanks
    John Sampson
    Phoenix, AZ

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    Senior Member DWill's Avatar
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    The thing is (though I am NOT saying you shouldn't get hydro's) the DOT regs only apply to cylinders used in commerce.

    An argument can be made that a personally owned, as apposed to a cylinder being rented by a shop or business SCUBA cylinder is not used in commerce and therefore DOT rules don't apply. Hence no hydro required.

    Not an argument I would make, as I kind of like my limbs and life. But I suppose if one really wanted to be a nickle rocket one could make that argument.

    But then one would also need to own and operated their own compressor and would most likely not be to bright...

    As, far as dive shop VIP's..... Don't even get me started on that rant.

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    Unified Team Diver rjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWill View Post
    But then one would also need to own and operated their own compressor and would most likely not be to bright...

    As, far as dive shop VIP's..... Don't even get me started on that rant.
    Ummm I have my own compressor and I haven't had to tumble a cylinder since. And I do my own VIPs. So I fancy myself brighter than you
    Quote Originally Posted by Mo2vation View Post
    if you don't have a great buddy you dive with its not your buddy's fault.

  7. #7
    Diving Technologist JS1scuba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Vlahos View Post
    Joel,

    Another good post! However I have a couple of questions not specifically mentioned.

    Should we as divers have specific concerns regarding steel or aluminum cylinders left filled to their rated maximum normal fill pressure for periods extending into months? You live in the desert and typically see temperature swings in normal daily life. For the purpose of my question please assume that a cylinder left filled but unused might be subject to temperature swings like those found in a garage in your area, but not normally exposed to extended periods of direct sunlight on a daily basis.

    It's actually best to store a cylinder either full or completely empty. If its full and the pressure rises from heat the safety will release. (such as in a fire) if its only partially full the temperature rise may not be enough to release the safety before the structural integrity of the cylinder fails (bomb)

    Extended months is not a problem if they are at service pressure. We have cylinders here exposed to 140f without issues. Keep them in a cool are

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Vlahos View Post
    What if these cylinders in the above example contain high percentages of Oxygen?
    Will not make a difference. Gas is gas, pressure is pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Vlahos View Post

    Your post was about the cylinders, what about the valves? What is our responsibility here in the US regarding the valves. Personally I make sure that the burst disks on all of my valves are correct for the cylinders they sit on. In most cases I have replaced the original burst disks for correct pressure ratings.
    The cylinder valve must have the proper safety assembly in it. If you have a 5000 psi safety on a cylinder than only requires a 4000 psi safety it is out of compliance and will not release when it should. Same thing goes for that stupid practice of double disking or plugging. It's illegal and dangerous.

    If a cylinder comes in for inspection or hydro with the valve the inspector must assure that the proper safety is in the valve. We change them out and charge the customer for it. If it comes in without valve we cant do anything about it.

    You should service the valve every 5 years and change the safety at the same time or sooner if it sees a lot of service. We change safeties in our own tanks every year. It's just prudent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Vlahos View Post
    On Faber cylinders I routinely use a scotch brite pad to smooth the edges where paint has chipped away and then followed up with the application of gray auto primer paint from Pep Boys. You know the little bottle with the brush on the inside of the handle. Am I making a difference, either positively or negatively on my cylinders expected long term life span. On Fabers where the wear is smooth like the lines on doubles that develop on the bottoms and around and up the backs from leaning I do not do anything to "fix" the paint.
    You are spot on -- if there are dings and scratches to reach the metal clean it carefully and touch it up with paint. I like to use Rustoleum Appliance White or Krylon.

    Use Tank boots and you wont have problems on the bottoms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Vlahos View Post
    What about my aluminum cylinders (brushed no coat finish), PST and Worthington cylinders? All of these get little or no attention when I discover "use marks"
    Aluminum cylinders without coating will oxidize on their own. Wash them down with fresh water after a salt water immersion and they are fine. Worthington tanks and PST that get cut or scrape deeper than the galvanization can be touched up with cold-spray galvanizing paint.


    Cheers
    JDS
    Joel Silverstein, VP COO
    Tech Diving Limited
    TDI Advanced Trimix Instructor Trainer 0125
    Need to reach me ? Cell / Text 928-230-3680

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    Senior Member DWill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjack View Post
    Ummm I have my own compressor and I haven't had to tumble a cylinder since. And I do my own VIPs. So I fancy myself brighter than you
    I have my own compressor too....

    I didn't mean the exceptionally bright folks like us....

    I meant people who would try and make the argument that they didn't need to hydro their cylinders at all ever because the regs didn't apply to them...

    I haven't had a dive shop VIP since about 1997, I've also not had to have a cylinder tumbled since about then. With the exception of a one set of doubles and a couple single HP 100's that I sat aside for boat diving and were subject to boat fills....

  9. #9
    Diving Technologist JS1scuba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTek Diver View Post
    Joel, if a cylinder fails inspection or hydro does your company x-out or drill holes in them?
    Thanks

    We X them out. It's the law. I'm not going to take a $10k fine for not complying.

    We have a service document that all customers sign when they drop off tanks that indicates that should the cylinder fail it will be removed from service.

    Drilling holes is just too much work. When it fails it goes from the test to to the vise - gets clamped and stamped then drained.

    Cheers
    JDS
    Joel Silverstein, VP COO
    Tech Diving Limited
    TDI Advanced Trimix Instructor Trainer 0125
    Need to reach me ? Cell / Text 928-230-3680

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS1scuba View Post
    We X them out. It's the law. I'm not going to take a $10k fine for not complying.

    We have a service document that all customers sign when they drop off tanks that indicates that should the cylinder fail it will be removed from service.

    Drilling holes is just too much work. When it fails it goes from the test to to the vise - gets clamped and stamped then drained.

    Cheers
    JDS
    Fair enough, I just don't want anybody drilling holes in my tanks. I've got a couple of failed aluminum 80s mounted in my van that I keep a 1000 psi in for driving an impact, quick tire fills, and general blow jobs, harder to use with holes in them.
    John Sampson
    Phoenix, AZ

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    UTD Member limeyx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTek Diver View Post
    Fair enough, I just don't want anybody drilling holes in my tanks. I've got a couple of failed aluminum 80s mounted in my van that I keep a 1000 psi in for driving an impact, quick tire fills, and general blow jobs, harder to use with holes in them.
    Wow, is there something I need to tell my girlfriend that shes not doing right ????

  12. #12
    Diving Technologist JS1scuba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTek Diver View Post
    Fair enough, I just don't want anybody drilling holes in my tanks. I've got a couple of failed aluminum 80s mounted in my van that I keep a 1000 psi in for driving an impact, quick tire fills, and general blow jobs, harder to use with holes in them.
    OK but keep in mind this. IF the tank failed hydro then it needs to come out of service. 250, 300, 500, 1000 all of it is pressure. I assume you are just transfilling into those. I would not do it. But that's me. Once I know it's bad it's bad.

    So drive up a whole pile of tanks to me and we can do them same day.

    Cheers
    JDS
    Joel Silverstein, VP COO
    Tech Diving Limited
    TDI Advanced Trimix Instructor Trainer 0125
    Need to reach me ? Cell / Text 928-230-3680

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS1scuba View Post
    So drive up a whole pile of tanks to me and we can do them same day.

    Cheers
    JDS
    That's the plan, but I'm still in Mexico for awhile so it will be next month.
    John Sampson
    Phoenix, AZ

  14. #14
    Diving Technologist JS1scuba's Avatar
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    that w be fine just give me some advance notice of what u have and when u w be up and we will move service schedules around to accomodate u.

    cheers
    jds

    Posted using a wireless device: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/hspr-H102; Blazer/4.0) 16;320x320

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    Will do. Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by JS1scuba View Post
    that w be fine just give me some advance notice of what u have and when u w be up and we will move service schedules around to accomodate u.

    cheers
    jds

    Posted using a wireless device: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/hspr-H102; Blazer/4.0) 16;320x320
    John Sampson
    Phoenix, AZ

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