what to do with renegade dive buddies

[mtyra]

I have a dive buddy who has gone renegade on me,going way over his head on diving,penetrating caves,out pacing himself on tech gear,too fast too soon adding more and more gear before he gets used to what he has been diving. I got caught up in it recently on a polaris accent he had when he was under weighted using doubles and a stage bottle and did not calculate his weight properly for the dive,ended up dragging me to the surface with him from about 40 ft after doing a 130 ft dive close to deco.I should have let go but it happened so fast I didn't have time,I just reacted by grabbing him and shooting to the top with him,after I made sure he was ok I went back down to 15 ft and blew off some nitrogen for about 10 minutes.He was involved in another incident this weekend with 3 open water divers penetrating a cave,the last one in got narced and turned the dive and exited without the other two noticing she was missing. she made it out ok that time but all 3 were in way over their head,I had to decline penetrating the cave until I get professional training which is in my near future. I just think I need to have a long talk with him but not sure it will take.I would hate to see him get hurt or hurt someone else.

[Ben]

It's a tough situation. Here's a good place to start. http://www.iucrr.org/

Another suggestion if your buddy does not listen to reason is push him into training right away with the best instructor you can find. What you are looking for is that with a tough instructor they might be humbled a bit or at the very least they are given some tools to help them do something they were going to do anyways.

Good luck. It is hard to watch someone do something that you know is not right, but in the end it is their choice.

[mtyra]

I think the training idea is a good one,we both want to take a cavern course so that might straighten him up and give him the skills he needs for overhead enviorements,I want to get comfortable in doubles before I take cavern,I see no point in doing it in a single tank especially if I am planning on going on to cave,not sure about that yet.

[TobinGeorge]

Observe rule one. Don't dive with $trokes.

This sounds harsh, I intended it to.

You want to help your friend, but he's a hazard to be avoided until he gets his mind right.

Walking away from him may or may not drive home that message, but it will absolutely keep him from hurting you too.


Tobin

[SparticleBrane]

Ditch the loser.

[mtyra]

Ditch the loser.

that was very thoughtful and informative

[Sounder]

I'm with the other two!!

Rule #1: Don't dive with strokes. This means don't dive with dangerous people. From your description, he's reckless and is an accident waiting to happen. Don't be part of that accident... remember, if you're his buddy, your life is in his hands. It's not worth it, don't dive with him.

Push him into training with a strong instructor - I'm sure with a little geographic help we can find some names for you. BUT... until he a) gets the training, and b) gets his head out of his ***, DO NOT dive with him. Period.

Whether you're DIR or not, NEVER forget Rule #1: Do not, ever, dive with dangerous people, ever, ever... ever.

If you'd like more information, there are LOTS of people on this board who are willing to help with suggestions and support. I'm one of them - just ask.

[mtyra]

WE have done probably 30 or so dives together in the last year and a half since he got certified and until recently I trusted him more than all the other divers I have dove with,he is always right by my side during a dive and I didn't have to babysit or worry about what he might do next,I think there is hope for him,he has very good skills and up until now very good judgment on dives and dive planning,I just need to get his head out of his arse but if not I have been solo diving for 28 years and I don't think I have forgotten,I actually did one this weekend,I forgot how much I like it,I did this while the openwater cave dives were going on.I did also get to dive with a newbie on his first post cert. dive I enjoy that also,teaching them what trim is all about and to slow down and see the sights and not burn through air so fast.

[Cam]

I'm with the other two!!

Rule #1: Don't dive with strokes. This means don't dive with dangerous people. From your description, he's reckless and is an accident waiting to happen. Don't be part of that accident... remember, if you're his buddy, your life is in his hands. It's not worth it, don't dive with him.

Push him into training with a strong instructor - I'm sure with a little geographic help we can find some names for you. BUT... until he a) gets the training, and b) gets his head out of his ***, DO NOT dive with him. Period.

Whether you're DIR or not, NEVER forget Rule #1: Do not, ever, dive with dangerous people, ever, ever... ever.

If you'd like more information, there are LOTS of people on this board who are willing to help with suggestions and support. I'm one of them - just ask.

Well said. There definitely is a reason rule number one IS rule number one.

Unsafe divers, because of lack of training, can be easily remedied with proper training by a qualified instructor. Unsafe divers, because of unsafe and wreckless attitude may not be remedied easily, if at all. It is very hard to change one personality. These are the types I'm very scared of. A diver with a wreckless attitude may get all the appropriate training in the world. Increased training, without modification in attitude, will merely serve to facilitatie that diver's comfort level with more risky and involved dives. The more complex a dive becomes, the narrower the margin of latitude in error in judgement/attitide/performance will be tolerated until a real life threatening tragedy occurs. It's like russion roulette, only every chamber carries a bullet.

[LCF]

Oh, this has got to be hard, if you guys have been long-term buddies.

There are two issues: One is whether you can have any effect on his choices and his behavior, and the second is at what point you have to draw a line and say, "No more."

The first is going to depend on several things: How much he respects your opinion, how valuable you are to him as a buddy, how insecure or defensive he is about what he's doing, and how you couch your approach to him. You're the only one of us who has any sense of who he is as a person, so you would hopefully know best whether the way to broach this is to begin by asking him about what he's doing, or by voicing your own unease with it.

If you talk to him and things break down or he is not receptive, then you have to decide how far you're willing to accompany him, and where your sticking points are. Maybe he'd be willing to negotiate that he doesn't do some of the things he's doing when diving with you, but only with other people. That doesn't address his safety, but he's the only one responsible for that, and if you have voiced your concerns, you may have done all you can.

If he won't give up the behaviors that are worrying you, and he won't agree to avoid them when diving with you, you may have to tell him that you guys won't dive together until or unless something changes.

Thank goodness I've never faced what you're facing. Good luck with it.

[mtyra]

I guess that kind of diving has led many people over to the darkside,after six years in the navy I just have safety permantly beat into my head no matter what I am doing.

[limeyx]

Time for a new buddy for sure.

It's one thing to get carried away a little and go slightly beyond what you are capable of, but to not learn from that (multiple times) and scale back -- not a good quality in a buddy. Definitely time for a new one.

[kidspot]

Here are a couple of articles you might want to pass on to your buddy as well.

GDI on "Too much too soon"
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/bas...-too-soon.html

And a letter from the NACD
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/bas...nity-nacd.html

Aloha, Tim

[Celt5494]

Good topic for discussion to be sure. In my line of work we always say to each other you can't be thin skinned and if you can't take constructive criticism especially if it comes to messing up and someone not going home you need to get packing. It's pretty hard to let someone like this know the reality of what they are doing when they are close to you, however that's where you need to in my opinion stand firm on your position. You don't want to be the guy that knows there is no way out and watching the needle pointing to zero PSI left in your tanks.
If you present your side to your buddy in a language you both understand and get a negative reaction move on. If you can get a bit of positive reaction you have done two things. One you might have well set them on the path to save their life and others by them realizing they need proper training and get it to do dangerous things as safely as possibly and two you might save a long term friendship with no bad blood between the both of you..................

[gcbryan]

You might have to save the friendship but forego the dives together.

I had to do something similar in both diving and rockclimbing. You can remain a loyal friend but if your safety is involved you don't owe anyone that kind of loyalty.

In my case after remaining friends but not dive or climbing buddies eventually the people involved changed on their own and I'm now able to dive and climb with them as well.