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The Razor 2 is a fine modular system for sidemount/no mount cave diving; the Z-system is the better all-around cave/open water wreck solution for those who decide to retain their training in fundamental Hogarthian/DIR Long Hose with necklaced Back-up Reg diving.
Different tools for different environments --use what's best that suits you. . .
"There are no mistakes. The events we bring upon ourselves, no matter how unpleasant, are necessary in order to learn what we need to learn; whatever steps we take, they're necessary to reach the places we've chosen to go."
Tobin, my intention of asking the question was to see IF it could be modified IF the original parts did not work well for me. That question has been adequately answered.Originally Posted by TobinGeorge
As to whether or not I would want to change things, only time and actual use will answer that question, but knowing that I am locked in to using parts that I am not already familiar with leaves me with a choice that I need to ponder.
I chose to ask my question in a public forum, because I have spoken with other divers that have alluded to this specific question. Asking in a public forum gets the information out in the public eye. Others can read the responses and make their own determination. The answers clearly indicate that most people seem not to have a problem with the bite valve. Perhaps I may form the opinion that the bite valve is not a problem. My only concern, and it is a big one, is that when I need to use the redundant air cell in an actual situation where the primary air cell has failed I may have other failures to deal with as well. Muscle memory is important to dealing with failures, and I already have the muscle memory in place to use traditional oral only inflators. Bite valves are not part of my diving muscle memory. I know that I can practice using the bite valve, just like I now practice using my oral only inflator on my traditional redundant doubles wing, but it means incorporating yet more different things into my skill set. I would get this wing for use in a cave. If I don't act quickly to solve a buoyancy problem I could easily silt out the cave, and create an even bigger problem very, very quickly. In the past I have had failures while cave diving that have forced me to switch to redundant buoyancy, descending even just a few feet at the wrong time can compromise safety in a hurry.
Clearly lots of divers are comfortable using bite valves, and they have been doing this for years. I fully understand that. I just want to know what my options are before I spend money on both equipment and training. When you couple those two costs together, and then add the cost of travel to get the appropriate training in a cave environment it adds up to at least a few thousand dollars, and that is certainly worthy of asking a few questions as part of the decision making process.
Mark Vlahos
At 50 dives, I thought I had this diving thing figured out. At 100 dives, I realized how wrong I was at 50.
If you're going to dive like a man, shave like a man
Cancer survivor since 2011.
The manufacturer / designer will always be IMO, better equipped to answer technical questions about any piece of equipment than the general public will be.
Public forums certainly have their place, and I have resorted to such when a manufacturer would not or could not (out of business) respond to technical inquires I had, but I always start with those most acquainted with the gear in question.
With public forums you make get responses that range from spot on, to well intentioned but not quite right, to outright wrong. Starting with the manufacturer provides some baseline to be able to understand the responses / rumors / allusions one might hear elsewhere.
When I have a technical question on a Hardinge Lathe, or Haas Mill or Agie EDM, I call Hardinge, Haas or Agie first. I may end up casting a wider net later if I'm looking for parts or didn't get the answers I need.
If I have a question on one my Deckel Mill I'll turn to a machine tool forum, as Deckel hasn't produced or supported these tools for 20+ years.
Tobin
You keep asking this on this and other forums. I think enough people have pointed out that clipping and one handed reg swaps is a pretty basic skill, (even for a SM newb like me) so let me ask, how do you shut down one tank, then open the other --on-the-fly-- while piloting a scooter on a Z-System??? Not a problem in traditional sidemount...
On the Z-system, you turn on one tank and shut down the other as per usual --but you never switch out regulators like conventional SM. The Long Hose Primary Regulator always stays in your mouth, necklaced backup Reg always around your neck. . .
"There are no mistakes. The events we bring upon ourselves, no matter how unpleasant, are necessary in order to learn what we need to learn; whatever steps we take, they're necessary to reach the places we've chosen to go."
Poor placement of that bite valve for the redundant wing guys. . . too exposed, vulnerable to cutting and an entanglement/snag hazard in a wreck overhead like over here in Chuuk Lagoon. My Razor 2 buddy initially pointed out these faults --ON HIS OWN WING-- while comparing side-by-side with the Z-system harness & wing.
Last edited by kevrumbo; 12-06-2011 at 09:37 PM.
"There are no mistakes. The events we bring upon ourselves, no matter how unpleasant, are necessary in order to learn what we need to learn; whatever steps we take, they're necessary to reach the places we've chosen to go."
Makes one wonder how Steve B. has survived this long......
Tobin
I know how the system works. What do you mean "as per usual"? You don't shut down your tanks every time you switch in traditional SM. My point is that it's a heck of a lot easier to swap which reg I'm breathing from with my left hand on a scoot than it is to reach across my body to turn the valve on the RH tank while scootering... Seems like a lot less effort to just swap regs...
As per usual? When do doubles users do this "as per usual"
There is a downside to the long hose always staying in your mouth. You don't regularly test your backup. Going through a tight restrictor it could be damaged or have silt or other yuck in it.
How does the Z-tech system handle a LP, or HP hose leak say from a sharp bit of metal cutting it?
As per usual --the fundamental techniques & practices of Hogarthian/DIR Long Hose Diving (with applied learning & adaptation to the Z-system manifold).
Check function & breath regulators pre-dive as a team in case "it could be damaged or other yuck in it" --gee, doesn't that make sense???
How you handle a LP or HP hose leak is the same consistent procedure/technique from day one of GUE Fundies/UTD Essentials: signal out-of-gas and get the Long Hose donation from your buddy. Problem solve and continue, or abort the dive & egress. . . (c'mon guys --you may have discarded Hogarthian/DIR when y'all went with your sidemount system-- just don't act like you've never heard of or ever applied it before). . .
[In Guam right now, going to Palau for another two weeks to test the Z-system in heavy current/drift diving open water conditions --and have a wonderful time doing it as well :-)]
"There are no mistakes. The events we bring upon ourselves, no matter how unpleasant, are necessary in order to learn what we need to learn; whatever steps we take, they're necessary to reach the places we've chosen to go."
Still haven't answered how one turns the cylinder valves on or off one handed while on the trigger...
Tobin
Comon Kevin. Lets be serious for a second and take a hard look at the pro's and cons of the system.
In one sentence you complain that switching regs every so often is outside the fundamental techniques & practices yet gloss over the z-tech's need to regularly turn on and off tanks. Both are not normally done as part of a standard dive in backgas, thus both are outside the "norm"As per usual --the fundamental techniques & practices of Hogarthian/DIR Long Hose Diving (with applied learning & adaptation to the Z-system manifold).]
The point was made that switching regs can and is practiced with either hand, and is a skill worked on during class during lights out line following. It becomes trivial to do with either hand. The question was raised, how easy is it to turn off the valve with your opposite hand? With many sidemounting systems, bungie is wrapped around the plugged crossbar section of the valve to hold the tank in tighter. This rotates the valve handle of the tank behind the divers armpit where it is protected. Reaching accross your body to get to a valve sounds like it would be pretty difficult to do.
Whether your are sidemount, backmount or no mount, divers are checking function of regs pre dive. During a dive though, these regs can get damaged especially during a grind through a major restriction, heavy silt or heavy perc. For example a sharp bit of metal or stick could easily poke through and tear a diaphram or a piece of debris could lodge in a exhaust valve, both would make the reg breathe wet.Check function & breath regulators pre-dive as a team in case "it could be damaged or other yuck in it" --gee, doesn't that make sense???
The advantage to switching regularly is that one is only a short time away from the last time one tested the reg. Reg testing is built into the system rather than an add on procedure.
While its a nice insult, again you are failing to look at the why side-mount was created. There will be situations where "signaling out-of-gas and getting the Long hose donation from your buddy" just isnt realistically possible. Take a look at this video and tell me where they could do this? http://superiordivetraining.com/videos-2How you handle a LP or HP hose leak is the same consistent procedure/technique from day one of GUE Fundies/UTD Essentials: signal out-of-gas and get the Long Hose donation from your buddy. Problem solve and continue, or abort the dive & egress. . . (c'mon guys --you may have discarded Hogarthian/DIR when y'all went with your sidemount system-- just don't act like you've never heard of or ever applied it before). . .
Let us know how the chambers are in Palau.[In Guam right now, going to Palau for another two weeks to test the Z-system in heavy current/drift diving open water conditions --and have a wonderful time doing it as well :-)]
Ever done a flow-check on convetional back-mount manifolded doubles while on-the-fly, on the scooter trigger Tobin? (A rhetorical question in reply) --surely can't be that hard to conceptualize now, can it???
"There are no mistakes. The events we bring upon ourselves, no matter how unpleasant, are necessary in order to learn what we need to learn; whatever steps we take, they're necessary to reach the places we've chosen to go."
On the rare occasions that I've clipped something at speed on a Cuda Fury I've always finished the flow check before re engaging the trigger. It's really not possible to do a flow check at 2.5+ mph
At cruise speeds a flow check is possible, but a flow check and shutdown aren't the same thing now are they.
Tobin
Sorry, but I not experiencing any of these drawbacks you claim about the Z-system --and that's after 20 technical penetrations on the historical wrecks in Chuuk Lagoon last week, and 6 open water drift dives on the beautiful reefs in world class Palau (and not some no-mount/no-name sump hole in Podunk USA). I'm here doing the real diving and reporting on it objectively --you're just speculating hearsay & fantasy Internet Diving. . .
http://www.unifiedteamdiving.com/pho...e?context=user
http://www.unifiedteamdiving.com/pho...m?context=user
http://www.unifiedteamdiving.com/pho...1?context=user
Hey Life Hater, You wish you could be here poor boy! Put the garbage back in yo mouth Trash Talker, and swallow it. . .! Cheap talk chump. . .
Last edited by kevrumbo; 12-12-2011 at 05:07 AM.
"There are no mistakes. The events we bring upon ourselves, no matter how unpleasant, are necessary in order to learn what we need to learn; whatever steps we take, they're necessary to reach the places we've chosen to go."
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